Comments on James Clark's Random Thoughts: Thai personal names

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2008-02-19T16:58:00.000+07:00

German names are of course similar to Austrian nam...

2008-01-04T20:09:00.000+07:00

German names are of course similar to Austrian names. E.g. Hans-Peter Müller has a single first name, and Hans Peter Müller has two. Common double names are frequently shortened in informal contexts, e.g. Hans-Peter is called Hape, Hans-Joachim is Hajo and so on.

Additionally, there used to be a tradition (at least in Northern Germany) to name children after their grand parents first names, e.g. my fathers first names are Gerhard Otto Adolf, as his grandfathers were called Otto and Adolf, respectively, but that's no longer in use apparently.

Another fun thing is that in Bavaria people are traditionally adressed Lastname Firstname.

Also, people frequently have double lastnames when married. On marriage, the couple picks one of their names as the marriage name ("Ehename") which will be the lastname of the kids. The couple itself can choose to keep the old name, take the new name, or prepend/append the new name to their old one, using a dash.

The idea to simply store names for use in certain contexts is probably a good one. Even the variations within western name systems are huge.

Also, to be correct you'll have to adapt context uses. I.e. most German users would be somewhat surprised to be greeted by a webpage as "Hallo Karl", as the usage of the first name only is quite uncommon in professional contexts.

I guess you could look at the chue len as being a ...

2007-12-29T04:29:00.000+07:00

I guess you could look at the chue len as being a particular flavour of hypocoristic. One notable feature of this flavour is that the chue len is typically not derived from the formal given name.

How does this concept In Thai relate to the (not j...

2007-12-28T22:51:00.000+07:00

How does this concept In Thai relate to the (not just English) idea of "pet names" or hypocoristics (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet_name)?

In Texas the first two names are frequently used t...

2007-12-23T12:26:00.000+07:00

In Texas the first two names are frequently used together. My mother was Sara Jean before she came North and simply Sara after she got here. Her best friend was Mary Alice. I never heard her call her just Mary, and she often called me Christopher William or just CW for short. So this isn't just an outside the US peculiarity.

Paul Morris said:The nice thing would be to share ...

2007-12-13T21:53:00.000+07:00

Paul Morris said:

The nice thing would be to share what we'd done, but does anyone else want that?

I think it would be useful, listening
to the comments here?

DaveP

When we developed our worldwide personnel system w...

2007-12-13T21:45:00.000+07:00

When we developed our worldwide personnel system we came up with a whole screen for people to enter their names, including unattached prefixes, orders, sort orders.

I did some research at the time (probably 4 years ago) and I couldn't find anyone else who'd done this work already.

It's probably hidden in the design notes of personnel systems for similarly international organisations.

The nice thing would be to share what we'd done, but does anyone else want that?

Lars Marius, if you put a non-breaking space betwe...

2007-12-11T21:14:00.000+07:00

Lars Marius, if you put a non-breaking space between your first names, does Facebook treat them as one?

Here is a good bog post discussing some i18n namin...

2007-12-11T11:54:00.000+07:00

Here is a good bog post discussing some i18n naming issues:

http://rishida.net/blog/?p=100
"Personal names around the world 1"

Some more random information about Dutch names:In ...

2007-12-10T21:55:00.000+07:00

Some more random information about Dutch names:

In catholic parts of the country people can have even more than 3 first names. Usually names of saints and the name you're addressed by is an abbreviation of the first. This is not really considered a nickname, but a 'roepnaam', calling-name.

My father for instance had five names, Petrus Christofel Dorotheus Bernardus Maria (yes, the 5th name is the woman's name 'Mary').
On the cards that where send to friends and family after he was born it must have said:
"born is Petrus Christofel Dorotheus Bernardus Maria, and we call him Peter"

(by the way, his two brothers share the same 5 names, but in different order so they do have different calling-names)

@Lars - Funny, as I was reading James's piece, I w...

2007-12-10T21:43:00.000+07:00

@Lars - Funny, as I was reading James's piece, I was thinking of Ethiopian names, having just visited there. Amongst the Amhara (one of the main ethnic groups in Ethiopia), names follow the pattern
<given name> <father's name>.
I didn't come across any cases of a trailing <grandfather's name> entry. In any case the concept of "family name" definitely isn't i18n'd!

Similarities with Thai are:
- people are addressed by given name (Mr James, not Mr Clark).
- romanisation not standardised

Given names can I think be whatever the parents wish. They're often Biblical (Haile Selassie = Power Trinity, Fasika = Easter), but can also be describe circumstances of a child's birth (eg "Unexpected", "Bringer together (of the family)").

Right, a preferred name should be marked up as so....

2007-12-09T16:55:00.000+07:00

Right, a preferred name should be marked up as so. Currently my name in hCard looks like so:
<div id='hcard-Hiếu-Đức-Hoàng' class='vcard'>
<a class='uri url fn' xml:lang='vi' lang='vi'>
<span class='family-name sort-string'>Hoàng</span>
<span>class='additional-name'>Đức</span>
<span class='given-name n'>Hiếu</span>
</a>
(<span class='nickname'>hđh</span>)</div>

So I can arrange my name the way it was given in vi, and still have hCard readers extract and sort by the right names. I'm not very sure about the n name, does it mean preferred way of addressing?

Even in the US, the usual first + middle + last co...

2007-12-09T12:41:00.000+07:00

Even in the US, the usual first + middle + last convention can break down. My first name (Jon) was similar enough to my father's name (John) that my parents decided to call me by my middle name (David). It seems like every other form I'm asked to fill out asks for first name and middle initial. Filling in "Jon" just guarantees I'll be getting mail addressed to somebody named "Jon D." for years to come. Better add a <preferred> to that hypothetical markup!

Lars Marius explained the Russian system correctly...

2007-12-09T05:16:00.000+07:00

Lars Marius explained the Russian system correctly: typicaly a person can be called using "nickname, given name, given + patronymic, given + family, or all three".

A nickname (usually the short form of a given name) is mostly used between peers in the informal settings, e.g., friends, family members of the same seniority, and so on. Example: Vova (given name: Vladimir). To be on a nickname basis between peers assumes a friendship usually. It is common to use nicknames to address children, in fact in some situations it can be used officially to distinguish child names from adult names.

Variation: in some cases a nickname + family name is used informally to differentiate people with the same nickname. Example: Vova Putin, not Vova Lenin (different people with the same nickname/given name).

A nickname + patronymic [+ family] is not used normally.

The other forms are more or less formal.

A given name is used in official settings between peers, or by older people to address younger people. Example: Vladimir (addressing a peer officially, e.g, in front of other people during the official ceremony).

Variation: a given + family name --- it's more formal, yet stresses "we are peers". Commonly used by politicians. Example: Vladimir Putin. This is the common way to map Russian full names to the "first-name last-name" convention.

A given name + patronymic is used to show the respect for the person. Typical situations: a junior person addresses a senior person, e.g, a younger man talks to a much older man, a subordinate talks to an executive of much higher rank. It can be used in official settings too. Example: Vladimir Vladimirovich.

All three names (the full name) is used in official settings, mostly on legal documents, or public official addresses. Example: Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin.

In short: a nickname is strictly informal, a family name is added to differentiate between people, a patronymic is used to show the respect, and can be added to help further differentiate people with the same given and family names.

In Spain, we have one or more "nombres" - forename...

2007-12-09T01:19:00.000+07:00

In Spain, we have one or more "nombres" - forenames - followed by normally two "apellidos" - surnames.

It is normal for the surnames to be the father's first surname followed by mother's first surname. A person has the right to apply to a court to swap his surnames round, or, in extreme circumstances (such as a surname now being used as a common swearword) to change your surname to something similar - e.g. Maricón to Marimón, but it you cannot officially change your surnames on a whim.

Some Surnames ending in -ez are an ancient form meaning "son of" - e.g. Fernandez, meaning son of Fernando, or Rodriguez, son of Rodrigo. These were adopted a large number of generations back, and no longer necessarily indicate the father's name.

When a woman marries, she keeps her names, but may optionally be referred to as being "of [husband's first surname]".

The first names are considered officially indivisible, and many people commonly use both - e.g. Juan Carlos, José María, José Luis, Juan Pablo, María Luisa, María José... Some people go only by one of their forenames colloquially, especially women whose first forename is "María" as it is common, though less so these days, for women to be named after an aspect of the virgin Mary - e.g. María de la Concepción (Mary of the Cencetion), María Inmaculáda (Mary the Immaculate), María del Pilar (Mary of the Pillar), María del Mar (Mary of the sea), María de la Trinidad (Mary of the Trinity). There are also common shirtened forms of long forenames - Concha or Conchi for Concepción, Encarna for Encarnación, and so on.

Up until the latter part of the 20th century, a person's forenames were only allowed to be from a list that was officially sanctioned by the church. It is still common for the first son or first daughter to be named after their father or mother.

There are exceptions to these rules, I do know people with more than two forenames or more than two surnames, but they are not hte common case. Certainly for any legal document, the full name must be shown.

As an example: "Manuel Fernandez Rodriguez" - whose father's line is descended from a Fernando sometime in the past - marries "María del Carmen Soto Verdaguéz". She keeps her names though can also be known as "Sra. de Fernandez" (Mrs. of Fernandez) or some variation, such as "Carmen Soto de Fernández". She probably introduces herself as "Maricarmen Soto", and her friends may know her as "Carmen".

They have two (male) children. The firstborn, "Manuel Fernandez Soto", is probably known in the family as Manolíto (a diminutive form) to distinguish him from his father, Manolo (a common contraction of Manuel) to his friends, and to the wider comunity as "Manuel Fernandez Hijo" (Hijo being Son) to distiguish him from "Manuel Fernandez Padre" (Padre being Father). The second, "José María Fernandez Soto" is probably known as "Chema" to his friends - another common contraction.

All in all, you can trace back a person's geneaology pretty easily in spain through church records and the various surnames that people have.

For i18n, Spaniards never have a middle name. It's incorrect to refere to José María Fernandez Soto as José Fernandez, though José María Fernandez is acceptable. Most spanish databases that involve names have a "First Surname" and "Second Surname" field, though as a nod to the many non-spaniards out there, the second surname is normally not required. They will never have a "Middle Name" field.

I worked in China for several years and found the ...

2007-12-08T21:07:00.000+07:00

I worked in China for several years and found the fluidity of names there fascinating.

One friend of mine, for example, chose the name "Michelle" for herself early on in school. Her friends typically call her "Mixue" (pinyin) which is how the name ends up being pronounced when you transliterate it into Chinese characters.

A couple of years ago, she decided her official given Chinese name was "unlucky" so she changed it, unofficially. She did this by having new business cards printed and by informing her colleagues that this was how she wished to be known from now on.

Any new business acquaintances from that point on would not know that she was previously known by a different name.

Apparently this was not regarded as unusual by those around her.

As for romanisation of Chinese names, the use of pinyin is of course most common. In the Cantonese parts where I lived, people sometimes chose to romanise their name as pronounced in Cantonese.

To sum up, it seems to me that in China people will call you whatever you want to be called.

In France, it is the same as in Italy, except that...

2007-12-08T17:09:00.000+07:00

In France, it is the same as in Italy, except that the usual given names are always joined by a dash.
So you can tell the difference between "Jean-Christophe Dupond" and "Jean, Christophe Dupond". The latter would be known by most people as "Jean Dupond".
The second given names (after the comma), as we call them, are used to avoid homonymy for the administration (even though they're not required), and must be told when dealing with formal authorities (exams, tax payments).
During day-to-day life (checks, signatures), you don't use those, so usually you only know the secondary given names of your family and very close friends.
They are usually the same as the given name of one of the parent, grand-parent or godparent. Some people are a bit ashamed of their second name (old-fashionned grand-parent's given name for example) and can easily manage to keep it secret most of the time, at least until they marry (where the mayor or the city clerk says all the given names). :D

Thanks James. Very informative.DaveP

2007-12-08T16:05:00.000+07:00

Thanks James. Very informative.

DaveP

Q: (In Italy)What's the difference between "Mario,...

2007-12-08T15:29:00.000+07:00

Q: (In Italy)
What's the difference between "Mario, Alberto Giovanni Rossi" and "Mario Alberto Giovanni Rossi"?

A:
It means when you sign a check you must use all four names - taking twice as long and twice as much ink.

I'm Thai and I agree with what you wrote. Every on...

2007-12-08T14:14:00.000+07:00

I'm Thai and I agree with what you wrote. Every one of my Thai friends has a nickname and only a few have a nickname the same as the first name. For example, my friend's first name is "Patr", so is his nickname.

Some of my friends have a nickname from part of their first name. For instance, first name is "Paveena", so her nickname is "vee."

A nickname can be given by parents or close relatives. As far as I know, it usually is from a baby's personality or some unique feature when a baby was born. For example, my nickname is "nid" because I was tiny when I was born. My daughter is "fa" because her eye color was blue. My friend is "may" because she was born in May. But of course there are some nicknames that come from nowhere.

You might notice that many Thai people have an animal nickname or even fruit nickname like nok (bird), poo (crab), moo (pig), pla (fish), chompoo (type of apple), etc.

You're right about how Thai people pronounce an English word in a different way. For example, in some words that end with "le", we tend to change it to "en". Like you wrote, "applern" to "appen", "little" to "littern", etc. There's a little bit of "r" sound but almost silent, it's subtle - I can't even explain it. It took me a while to say the word "little" correctly. :)

My husband, American, tries to learn Thai and while Thai has less things to learn in some ways, there are an abundance of consonants, vowels, tonal variation, accents etc. He said the Thai language seems to have fewer verb conjugations, and eliminate some redundancies such as saying "two chair" instead of "two chairs."

We usually don't address people by last name. It'd be too long to say it - by the time you finish saying it, they're gone. :) Sometimes, we do address each other using first name, usually in a formal situation like business meeting. Even in a formal situation, once you get to know a person, you'll likely address them using their nickname.

Anyway, thank you for the observant comments about naming in my culture.

The point about commas in Italian names is interes...

2007-12-08T11:02:00.000+07:00

The point about commas in Italian names is interesting. What's the difference between "Mario, Alberto Giovanni Rossi" and "Mario Alberto Giovanni Rossi"? Does it change the status of Alberto and Giovanni somehow?

I find it fascinating how Lars Marius separates se...

2007-12-08T10:44:00.000+07:00

I find it fascinating how Lars Marius separates second given names into 'second first' and middle names. I'm Austrian and it would never have occured to me to make that distinction. I know Austrians with up to four given names, but using more than just the first one is either a way of expressing formality or done to distinguish them from another person with the same first and last names. However, there is a similar concept of an integral unity of two given names, which is double first names. For example, if an Austrian named his child after Hans Christian Anderson, he might choose Hans-Christian. Addressing Hans-Christian as just Hans would be very informal, similar to addressing Richard as Ric; unless you knew that the person in question prefers the shorter version himself, you'd only do that among close friends.

I have Thai friends at my school named Top, Benz, ...

2007-12-08T10:43:00.000+07:00

I have Thai friends at my school named Top, Benz, and Boom. I had always thought they assumed such nicknames because their real names are so long and hard to pronounce (which they are). Thanks for the insight.

In Italy is a little bit different too.Basically w...

2007-12-08T05:35:00.000+07:00

In Italy is a little bit different too.

Basically we have a given name and a family name, say Mario Rossi.

Sometimes we have several given name, say Mario Alberto Rossi.

And sometimes we have more with a comma, say Mario, Alberto Giovanni Rossi.

In the last case, from a legal point of view (e.g. legal signature) only Mario Rossi is required.

Good example. I tend to favor Ian Davis' suggestio...

2007-12-07T21:33:00.000+07:00

Good example. I tend to favor Ian Davis' suggestion for FOAF: forget about modeling name parts in a structured way and just focus on different display names for different contexts (formalname, informalname, penname, etc.).